After working with props and other stuff for a while, I've just started to work again on the characters for my webcomic novel, and I've encountered a problem with V4's clothes that may be specific to the SASHA-16 version. So I'm hoping for a little insight from other S-16 users!

The problem is with the way some tops (i.e., shirts or tops of dresses) distort below the breasts, particularly when the figure uses certain FBMs. I've battled with the problem in the past, with limited success, but I think the key to solving it lies in understanding what causes it.

Before SASHA-16 came out, I was using the Nerd3D-WM version of V4 (which has nice weight-mapping but lacks all of S-16's other nifty features). I transferred most of my main characters over to S-16 early on, but today I went through the process of transferring my last remaining main character -- and that's when I discovered that the clothing fit problem might be related to S-16.

One of this character's "stock outfits" is the Veranil top and skirt from the DAZ Store, and when the Nerd3D-WM version of the character is wearing the Veranil top, it has only a slight distortion under the breasts. But when I put the top on the S-16 version of the character, the distortion was dramatic enough that even a dark texture couldn't hide it! (See the "smooth shaded lined" renders I've attached.)

Here are the steps I followed:

- Loaded the Veranil top from the library (from original CR2)
- Conformed it to the S-16 V4 character, with boxes checked for Include Morphs and Include Scales
- Applied Karina's "S-16 Copy Joint Centres to Clothes" script to the top
- Used Poser's "Copy Morphs From" menu to transfer the character's FBMs to the top (Bulk, PearFigure, Voluptuous, Aiko4, and AikoStylized*)

*These are the FBMs I use most often in my female characters, and I don't use any PBMs b/c they cause too much hassle with fitting clothes (at least for my purposes). The FBMs are typically set to values between .2 and .4, and I "transfer" them to an S-16 based figure by dialing the values in manually. (I save a library preset to transfer head morph settings, but not body.) My "base" S-16 has only Morphs++ and Aiko4 loaded.

When I saw the distortion in the Veranil top, I zeroed the character's FBM dials and dialed them back in one at a time, which allowed me to see that Bulk and PearFigure do not contribute to the problem, while Voluptuous, Aiko4, and AikoStylized do (as does Girl4, based on a previous experience w/ another character).

If I was doing one-time renders of single-use characters, I'd either avoid using the problematic FBMs or use Poser's Morph Brush to smooth out the area after posing the figure. But those aren't options for characters I intend to use over and over in a webcomic, esp. since they all use some degree of Aiko4 (for a slightly more stylized look). I tried switching the top to unimesh and using SubD, but that made no difference.

So now I'm trying to figure out: WHY does this happen with my S-16-based characters, and what's the best way to solve the problem for the V4 tops that distort this way?

If the problem is in the geometry of the tops, I'm willing to try and fix it in my modeler, but I'd need to know what I'm trying to fix. If the problem is in the Aiko4 and Girl4 morphs, I could try making my own FBM with a similar shape so I no longer need to use either of those (for bodies, anyway). If the problem is coming from the rigging, then I don't mind messing around with the Joint Editor, but I'd need a clue as to what I should be aiming for!

Any insight would be much appreciated

--Amy

EXAMPLES (hopefully!)

Are you following the SR1 progress thread here on the forum? If not, take a look.

http://sasha-16.forumprofi.de/showthread.php?tid=71

I have a sneaking feeling the problem your seeing may be related to what I was showing (page 4) with the abdomen/chest area of Sasha, which Karina is working on. I can't really tell the grouping on your blouse, but am guessing that the problem is in the same junction area (abdomen/chest).

Given that I have over 100 clothing items for V4 that might potentially have the same problem AND the fact that I need to clothe over 20 female characters, I decided to spend some more time doing tests to see if I could figure out what's causing the problem, at least with the Veranil shirt. And I think I may be close to figuring it out!

The good news (for everyone here): it has nothing to do with S-16!

The bad news for those who rely on Poser's "Copy Morphs From..." menu command to get Body Morphs into clothing: that's what causes the problem.

I got the idea to check into this after I loaded up a regular (non-Sasha) V4 with Morphs++, Aiko4, Girl4, Elite, and Stephanie4, switched her to "smooth shaded lined," and then watched what happened (esp. around the breasts) as I tried each FBM. I grabbed Preview renders of each for further study b/c the results were rather interesting!

The FBMs that were giving me trouble all have one thing in common: they tuck the mesh up under the breasts as the breasts get larger. That makes sense when applied to naked skin, but it makes no sense when applied to clothing. But when you use "Copy Morphs From," Poser just puts the skin-based morphs from the figure into the clothing "as is," so if the skin gets tucked up, so does the clothing.

The Veranil outfit is one of those older DAZ Store products that comes with two parts: the clothing items AND pose files to inject the morph sets you want (Morphs++, Aiko, Girl, Elite, and Stephanie). When you first load a clothing item, it has all the necessary morph channels but no morph data, until you use the pose files to inject the data.

In the example I posted earlier, I had opted to use "Copy Morphs From" instead of the FBM INJ pose files because the files don't include the newer PearFigure and Heavy FBMs. But after my "skin mesh" vs. "clothing mesh" realization, I got to wondering: maybe the FBMs that get injected with the pose files have been modified so that they don't deform the clothing in exactly the same way as they do the figure's skin, particularly in the breast area.

So I tested that theory by using the pose files to inject FBMs into a "fresh" Veranil top, and lo and behold, the shirt did NOT crumple under V4's breasts, no matter which FBMs I dialed in. I then loaded my S-16 base and repeated the test, with the same results.

The Preview renders below show the Veranil top in smooth-shaded lined mode as worn by my base S-16 (with the skin texture for Girl4 but none of the shader nodes that originally came with it). I'm only posting the renders of AikoStylized, but the results were pretty much the same for Aiko, Girl, and Voluptuous.

I plan to do more testing on other tops, but here's what it seems to mean at this point, at least for those who want to use one of these "problem" FBMs:

- if the clothing creator has customized the FBMs he or she put into the top so that the clothing mesh doesn't "tuck up under" breasts the way the skin mesh does, then the top will likely look fine
- if the clothing creator basically just copied the FBMs into the top "as is" -- OR if the user copied the morphs using Poser's "Copy Morphs From" command -- then the top will likely end up being distorted

Given that it's not easy to determine how the clothing creator got the FBMs into the top (and whether they were modified), and the fact that many clothing items don't come with FBMs already loaded, I'm thinking that my best bet is going to be to find other ways to get the body shapes I want for my characters, instead of using the "problem" FBMs.

Possibly have a look at https://www.daz3d.com/clothing-morphkit-for-victoria-4 by netherworks. It's a magnet system. Although I personally don't have it, if it works as good as his hair converter system it would be worth looking at.

Zitat von RLOwens

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Possibly have a look at https://www.daz3d.com/clothing-morphkit-for-victoria-4 by netherworks. It's a magnet system. Although I personally don't have it, if it works as good as his hair converter system it would be worth looking at.

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Thank you for your earlier response and for this one!

I had the Netherworks' product on my DAZ Store wish list for a long while, waiting for it to go on sale. But once I upgraded to Poser Pro 11 and had the ability to use Poser to "Copy Morphs From," I took it off my wishlist.

I also had the idea that it was mainly for adapting V4's magnet-based morphs to clothing and that the weight mapped versions of V4 didn't have the same magnets -- but I could be wrong about one or both!

Now I'm wondering (esp. given the price) if the system actually has "improved" versions of the FBMs that tend to cause the most problem with clothing fit, esp. around the breasts. The fact that the clothing morphs are made with magnets presumably means that the user can continue to refine them even after applying them to clothing, which would be handy. I've used the Morph Brush far more often than Poser's magnets, but I've messed with them enough to get the basics.

I'll have to look into that further. Thanks for the heads up!