Zitat von Karina

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I appreciate all the extra work you did for me, and the detailed feedback.

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You're welcome! I like helping out with stuff like this

I forgot to say that I'm using the Mac version of Poser Pro 11 (version 11.1.1.35510). I no longer have access to earlier versions of Poser so I can't test S-16 in those.

Also, I have a suggestion for how to organize the S16 setup files to make it easier for users to figure out just by the file names (and info on the preview PNGs):

01 Load Base Figure
02 Apply Base Morphs
03 Apply Morphs++
04 OPTIONAL PACKAGES (<- PNG could explain that these are optional but that the process isn't over until you do step 05)
04a Apply Aiko4 Morphs
04b Apply Girl4 Morphs (presumably this is OK?)
04c1 Apply All Stephanie4 Morphs -OR-
04c2 Apply Only S4 Essentials
04d Apply Elite Morphs
04e Apply Aged Morphs
04f Apply Muscle Morphs
04g Activate KarinaVagina
05 Apply S-16 Morph Fixes

Just a thought!

activate vs apply vs inject

K: "Yes, in fact there's no "remove" option because Poser can't do this. Once you have it "activated", it's there."
So, I'm understanding that KV exists in Sasha from the start, perpetually, but now until you activate it, you won't see it, but after that there is no way to "unsee" or "deactivate" KV. Is that accurate? [not objecting or complaining about this, just want to be sure I understand]

perpetualrevision is introducing the word "apply" for all the others. Meanwhile, Poserdom is accustomed to the word "inject" and looking for the accustomed "remove" right below the "inject." I think it would be bad to use "inject" for that very reason: people will bitch about the absence of "remove"

But ..... does "apply" vs "activate" trigger confusion? After all, they can't get rid of Aiko after those morphs are applied/injected/activated any more than they can get rid of KV.

The challenge here is to make everyone understand that the way to get the set wanted is to click on the packages you have, then save A Girl Character. In other words "lack of remove" is not a glitch, it is a feature.

I guess my 2-cents-worth is to avoid the terms activate/apply/inject altogether, the way Karina has them now.

::::: Opera :::::

"I grok it now," said Smith.

Zitat von operaguy

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But ..... does "apply" vs "activate" trigger confusion? After all, they can't get rid of Aiko after those morphs are applied/injected/activated any more than they can get rid of KV.

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Actually, you can get rid of Aiko -- by using the REM Aiko.pz2 file that came with her. You can do that for any of the DAZ morph packages for V4.

That brings me to a question for Karina: are the "morph loader" files you provide for V4 base, Morphs++, Aiko, etc. exactly the same as what users already have in their V4 Pose library, or have you modified them?

If they're exactly the same, then what about letting users inject those morph packages the way they're used to? For that matter, what about putting your customized "morph loader" files in the Pose library, since that's where users would expect to find them?

Anyone who's used V4 is already very familiar with the basic process of setting up a new character:
1) Open the Figure library, go to the DAZ Victoria 4 folder, and load the original V4 CR2
2) Open the Pose library, go to the DAZ Victoria 4 folder, and apply whatever morph packages the user wishes
3) From the Pose and/or Material library, apply whatever character shapes and skins the user wishes
4) Save the newly created character to a custom folder in the Figure library for future use

So it might be worthwhile to make the process of setting up a new S-16 character as familiar as possible. Users could still follow the steps above, except that the folder names would be slightly different*. The only "new" thing they'd have to do (after Step 2) is apply the S-16 Morph Fixes and, if they wish, activate the KV.

*For example, if the folders had names like DAZ Victoria 4--Sasha-16, then they'd appear right next to the original V4 folders in the Library.

To be clear: what I'm suggesting above is for the benefit of the "average" Poser user. Those of us who are, ahem, "above average" Poser users already know how to "bend the rules," so we'll know what parts of your setup we can rearrange to suit our needs. For example, I moved nearly all of the items in the KARINA's TOOLBOX folder to different locations, based on where they'd make the most sense to me. I put the "Prop Tools" in a UTILITIES folder in the Props library, and I separated all the general-purpose PZ2 utilities out from those specific to S-16 and organized them accordingly. I reorganize just about everything I put in my Runtime, so that it'll make sense for my needs.

Consider this: you and I know that you can put pretty much any Poser library file type in any of the libraries and they'll still work. So it doesn't surprise me to click on something in the Pose library and discover that it loaded a prop. But I'm guessing that might surprise the "average" user as that's not how they expect things to work.

To be honest, the very first time I loaded S-16, I was kinda confused about why the "morph loader" files were in the Figures library -- and I'm a power user! It's just not what I was accustomed to, after having set up dozens of V4 characters the "usual" way (including other weight-mapped versions as well as ones with the Perfect Fixes packages).

PS: Regarding my use of the word "Apply": that's basically Poser-speak for "double click on this Library item." So it's a broader, more "multi-purpose" term than "Inject."

"Actually, you can get rid of Aiko -- by using the REM Aiko.pz2 file that came with her. You can do that for any of the DAZ morph packages for V4."

Oh. What about the base loader, though? That is Karina's cr2, right? Or at lease his script to infuse the (loading) V4 cr2 with all the good Sasha stuff.

Depending on K's response to "both the inject and remove" packages in the Sasha sequence are the same as with normal V4 ...
Perpetualrevision's suggestions are interesting. I am also thinking about the "average Poser person with V4," not us power people. And ... as little grief for Karina once new users start to deploy Sasha.

:: og ::

P.S. I've always despised having to go to three different folders to establish a base character of even a bridge or brick wall. It took me years to grok (stop me if I'm overusing that term) that something in the "Pose" folder has the purpose of changing the color of a character's shirt.

I agree Blackhearted is inflaming the situation and feeding the troll. He has an arrogant edge to him. Qaz is rude and obnoxious, as well.

In general, I like having the entire Sasha sequence in one folder, in "figures."

Still ... Karina, are you contemplating adding "removes?" Maybe you shouldn't, since KV can't be de-activated (removed.) Since (agreed) it's tough to get people to read the manual, or even your "hints" in the library, somehow you have to impress upon them that the way to proceed is to throw away an instance they don't like and start again. No "removes," is the Sasha philosophy.

In California, we drink Mezcal for that.

Zitat von Karina

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The only problem would be that users will have to actually DELETE all now derelict files (or the complete folder, even better) and replace it with the new one.

I think we're in a bit of trouble here, given the fact that many people are already at the end of their computer skills when they have to navigate to a folder...

A Python script could help here, but then you must convince people to actually USE it.

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Have you actually encountered users who don't know how to navigate to the Libraries folders in their Runtimes?

In the Mac version of Poser, you can right-click on any item in the Library viewer and you'll get the option to "View in Finder," which takes you right to the item. (Nearly all Mac apps have this function.) Is there not a similar option in the Windows version?

As for what users should do with the "old" S-16 library files: if you give the SR1 version new folder names, then it should be simple enough to just put the new folders in the appropriate libraries. If the user is certain he or she didn't put anything they custom-made into the "old" folders, then they can just delete them. (Or rename them by putting OLD in the folder names, if they want to keep them just in case.)

No worries about the tone of your reply! I am very familiar with how frustrating it can be when you put a lot of thought into setting something up to be user friendly and then someone else comes along and starts making suggestions to change things! The only way you can truly know what the "average user" wants is if you could get a representative sample of them to respond to a questionnaire, and since that'll never happen, we're left with making our best guess!

Zitat von Karina

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Actually, you can get rid of Aiko -- by using the REM Aiko.pz2 file that came with her. You can do that for any of the DAZ morph packages for V4.

That's true, and I probably should mention that in the manual (that nobody will read anyway)

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Just FYI: I did read your manual (some sections more than once, as needed), and I found it very helpful! But I do think it's a good idea to add a note that the Aiko, S4, Elite, etc. morph INJ files in your setup are the same as what came with V4, which is why users can use the REM files that came with V4 if they wish.

Zitat

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No, except for the "essential S4 Morphs" they are the same.
I just wanted starters to find everything they need to set up SASHA in one place, instaed of sending them off on a quest though their runtimes.

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I can certainly understand why you want to provide everything needed to set up a new S-16 figure in one folder, and why you wouldn't want to move all the PZ2s into a Pose library folder.

In that case, here's another possibility for a way to organize the setup files to clarify the process. For the "Additional Morphs" steps, I used the file names as they appear in the original DAZ Victoria 4 Pose library folder, which might help to clarify that they're basically copies.

STEP 1 Load Base Figure
STEP 2 INJ Base V4
STEP 3 INJ Morphs++ V4
STEP 4 Load Additional Morphs as Needed
Step 4a INJ Aiko V4
Step 4b INJ Elite V4
Step 4c INJ Stephanie 4
Step 4c INJ The Girl 4
Step 4d INJ ... and so on
STEP 5 Load S-16 Morph Fixes
STEP 6 Activate KV (optional)

Please note that this is just a suggestion that's coming from my own many years of experience with trying to make things as clear and simple to students as possible. (I'm a retired university writing instructor.) But ultimately you should go with the naming conventions that make most sense to you!

Also: I left out your "Essential S4" file b/c it might be less confusing to just not include it, at least not in the main S-16 Setup folder. It's more of an "advanced user" kind of thing, I think.

Zitat

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PS: Regarding my use of the word "Apply": that's basically Poser-speak for "double click on this Library item." So it's a broader, more "multi-purpose" term than "Inject."

[color=#0000CD]Hmmm, this certainly needs more discussion!
My thinking:
I can apply a morph. But before I can apply it, I first need to inject it into the figure (or make it myself).
ANd even the DAZ morph files or character injections are called exactly like this:
INJECTIONS.
SO unless we find a better solution, I think we should stick to the terminology:
- INJECT morphs and characters (for anything not yet in the figure)
vs.:
- APPLY a pose/script (for everything that is already predefined in the figure)

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As an English major and writing instructor, I certainly appreciate the nuances of the different terms, and I also appreciate the precision and accuracy of your definitions

But when I said "Apply" was "Poser-speak," what I meant was that if you select an item in the Library and hover over the checkbox at the bottom, it says "Apply." In other words, that's Poser's general-purpose term for loading things from the library. But I can certainly see why you might not want to use the term in your file names!

New Suggestion re: Karina's Toolbox
I do have one more suggestion to help users make full use of all the nifty stuff you provide. Have you considered separating out all the utilities and so on that are not specific to S-16 and offering them as a separate freebie package, called something like "Karina's Poser Toolbox"?

When I first installed S-16, the only Toolbox item I figured I needed easy access to was the S-16 Copy Joint Centres to Clothes PZ2 file, so I put that at the top of my Pose library (where I used to have the Magnetize to V4 PZ2 file). It didn't actually occur to me to look more closely at the files in the Toolbox subfolders until much later -- and I only realized the value of some of them this past week, while carrying on this conversation! And that's when I moved them to the library folders where I keep other general-purpose "Handy Utilities" (one in the Pose folder and one in Props). Now that they're where all my other handy utilities are (including your Batch Colour Gadget), I'll be able to make use of them!

Separating out the "Poser Toolbox" files from those specific to S-16 would also have a few added benefits for you:
- updates to the Toolbox files could be handled separately (if updates are needed at all)
- a general-purpose Toolbox would appeal to more users beyond those who have a need for S-16 (and who knows, after those users see how useful the Toolbox is, maybe they'd decide to give S-16. a try!)
- you wouldn't have to include a manual for the general-purpose Toolbox items in your S-16 manual (although I should note that in my version of your manual, the link to "Karina's Tool Box" in the Where are the SASHA-16 files in my Runtime? goes to your custom 404 page!)

Again, if you're not interested in separating out the general-purpose Toolbox items from the S-16 package, that's totally fine -- and you don't even need to explain why. I'm just tossing out an idea in case it's useful to you!

I very much appreciate all the work you put into making S-16 so user-friendly, and I just wish I could do more to encourage other V4 users to give her a try!

I share Perpetualrevision's hesitancy to suggest changes to something you've put so much thought and work into, but since that ship has sailed, here's my thought ...

STEP 1 Load Base Figure
STEP 2 INJ Base V4
STEP 3 INJ Morphs++ V4
STEP 4 Load Additional Morphs as Needed
Step 4a INJ Aiko V4
Step 4b INJ Elite V4
Step 4c INJ Stephanie 4
Step 4c INJ The Girl 4
Step 4d INJ ... and so on
STEP 5 Final morph integration (mandatory)
STEP 6 Activate KV (optional)

I only changed "Step 5." They don't need to know they are "fixes" but they DO need to know Step 5 is mandatory (or 'required')

I like the differentiation of "INJ" for the various packages and "Activate" for KV

Perpetualrevision: "I do think it's a good idea to add a note that the Aiko, S4, Elite, etc. morph INJ files in your setup are the same as what came with V4, which is why users can use the REM files that came with V4 if they wish."

I suggest adding "However, the KV, once activated, cannot be REM because it becomes part of SashaBase." Then you could explain how to hide KV if activated, and also restate the idea they can/should just start over if they don't like the selections they made, since it is so easy to give birth to a new Sasha.

[Alternative radical idea: Don't let them know the various INJ are identical with the DAZ injectors, because they will get greedy for the REMs. Let them think it is all KarinaMagic. Then, pound away at the idea of "Just birth a new one" if they don't like their setup. Otherwise, they have to go hunt down the DAZ REMs, or you have to put them in the Sasha folder.]

An install video would be great. I have tools and skills in that area.

::::: Opera :::::